Reinventing Life After Divorce with Dawn Fleming
Reinvent Yourself After Divorce
In this week's episode, Seth and Pete chat with midlife reinvention expert Dawn Fleming about rebuilding your life after divorce. They cover everything from rediscovering old hobbies to going back to school to finding new purpose and passion.
Seth and Pete start by unpacking Dawn's own "attorney turned alchemist" story. She shares how she reinvented herself multiple times through divorce, career changes, spiritual journeys, and ultimately creating a life of adventure and service with her husband.
Some key themes explored include:
Finding confidence and esteem after divorce
Learning new skills to grow yourself
Reconnecting with old passions and interests
Establishing a support network of friends
Embracing change and new chapters
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do I move forward after divorce?
What next steps should I take?
How can I find purpose?
Key Takeaways:
Try new things and find what you used to love
Build your confidence through accomplishments
Surround yourself with positive people
Be open to reinvention and change
Plus, we tackle a listener question about how Seth handles working with clients who have emotional dysregulation or mental health issues during the divorce process.
This uplifting episode will leave you feeling empowered, motivated, and excited about the possibilities ahead after divorce. Tune in for an insightful discussion on reinventing yourself!
Links & Notes
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships from TrueStory FM. Today is the day your toaster sets sale.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson. As always, I'm here with my good friend Pete Wright. Today, are you ready for a reinvention after your divorce? Dawn Fleming is a bestselling author in midlife reinvention expert, and today she joins us to help us learn how to reframe our dreams and to turn them into reality after your divorce, without anxiety, without being overwhelmed and without any confusion. Dawn Fleming, welcome to the toaster.
Dawn Fleming:
It's a pleasure to be here.
Pete Wright:
We are talking about rebuilding after divorce. It's one of our favorite topics is what happens after the divorce. After you're done with your attorney and you have such an interesting rebuilding story and frankly life. I feel like we've been talking to you for so long. I know a lot about you and I don't want to take that for granted. Would you introduce the way you live and your own story to our audience before we dig into peppering you with questions and how-tos?
Dawn Fleming:
Sure. So the title I came up with is actually Attorney Turned to Alchemist. And yeah, that's the thing.
Pete Wright:
Do you have to do that when you're done being an attorney, because we got to start shopping around ideas for Seth.
Seth Nelson:
No, I applied for that job. There's only one position, Pete. There's one position. Dawn has it. I have to keep working. Thank you for bringing up a soft point.
Pete Wright:
That is a source.
Seth Nelson:
We [inaudible 00:01:50] start for New Year. Thank you.
Dawn Fleming:
Yeah. And sadly, my husband just talked to his best friend whose attorney literally died at his desk recently. So yeah, that's why I put practice.
Seth Nelson:
His desk was at a strip club, so don't feel so badly.
Pete Wright:
Noted. Noted.
Dawn Fleming:
Oh, goodness. But yeah, I guess I'm a master at rebuilding and change and transitions and it's just, yeah, even sometimes I have to pinch myself how many different... I feel like I've lived multiple lives in one lifetime.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. You have this, you're married, there's your high school sweetheart, and you're in your thirties and you're like, well, we're getting a divorce. So that's not easy, right?
Dawn Fleming:
No, because like I said, we really got high school sweethearts. We did college, we did medical school. We were halfway through residency and we were both poor. We both grew up poor and it was like we don't have to struggle for money anymore. And we had just bought a house in Orange County and I had a great job. I thought everything was going really well. And then I was literally blindsided when that happened.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, we've talked about that before, is times of transition, kids graduating out of high school, becoming empty nesters, people finally getting their degrees, and then one spouse is like, I just helped put you through school and now you're moving on. What the fuck? Right? So when parents pass away and you're married, that can be a very difficult time and stressful. So that can cause some transitions on how people deal with that. When God forbid if a child passes, that's a huge, huge problem.
Dawn Fleming:
Oh, huge.
Seth Nelson:
So some of these things, life happens and you're like, wait a minute. So Dawn, you wake up, you're living thousands of miles away from your hometown. How did you start getting through that?
Dawn Fleming:
Well, at first I was literally suicidal. Really I didn't see a future. I wasn't close to my family. All my friends I had left back in Minnesota had been gone for a couple of years, didn't really put the effort into creating that support network because honestly at that point in my life I didn't see the value of it. My ex and I were kind of islands, which is a real dangerous thing. And if I had any advice to give anybody, whether you're married or not, you've got to have a support network.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, that's one of the things I talk about. I was actually, Pete, I don't know if I was just telling you this offline or not, but I have a close friend whose daughter got married and she called and said, "Seth, my dad said that I could pick your brain about marriage advice because I'm going to a pre-marriage counseling class." Because I talked to her before they got married. And she goes, "And they're just saying, don't go to bed mad." She's like, that just doesn't really sound like it's going to get us through the tough times. But Dawn, to your point, one of the things that I told her is I said, you have to live your separate lives and then live your collective life together. And living part of that separate lives is staying connected to people that are important to you or finding your own friends or girls night out just for lack of a better term, or the guys are going to play golf or watch the game. Just kind of sexist stereotypes here.
Pete Wright:
Or other stereotypes we live.
Seth Nelson:
Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But that does keep you grounded. It keeps you honest and it makes the time together more important because you're not just always together out there on the island living life and then something goes wrong and you're like, whoa, now I'm out here on a deserted island by myself.
Dawn Fleming:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, I'm pretty happy with my analogy this early in the year.
Pete Wright:
No, I am too. I feel like you're out of the gate hot and I don't know what to do with that.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Well, it's a new year, Pete. We're going to just have to adjust.
Pete Wright:
New year. New year. Yeah, you look great.
Seth Nelson:
I think it was the astrology. The astrology-
Pete Wright:
Gave you a lot to think about.
Seth Nelson:
... bonus episode gave me some things to think about relationships. She kind of hinted at that. So I'm trying some new things here.
Pete Wright:
I'm glad because I've been crying under my desk since then.
Dawn Fleming:
My husband's an electrical engineer and he'll tell you, we are pure energy, so don't discount the astrology thing.
Pete Wright:
There you go.
Seth Nelson:
Oh man, I walked right into that. I ain't know Dawn was in it.
Pete Wright:
We just had to show you the door. You got to walk through it.
Dawn Fleming:
Thank god Mercury retrograde's over, right?
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. So I feel like this is a thing that I deal with a lot as, okay, I'm trying to wear 50 better, right? I am 51 now and I'm trying to wear it nice. And part of that is coming to terms with the fact that when you have a complicated sort of family situation, it's hard to get out there and maintain external relationships, right? It's hard not to be an island. And I wonder if there are other people who are coming out of divorce or thinking about a divorce who are afraid of exactly that. When you say go maintain external relationships, wow, Dawn, how that is the central question is, how the hell do I do that? I don't have any time. Is it just all, I just have to be on TikTok more? Is that what you're saying? I'm sure it's TikTok.
Dawn Fleming:
Well, TikTok wasn't around when I went through that, but you're going to laugh. This is actually pretty funny. So one of the things that happened is I was 30, I have a brother that's nine years younger than me. My 21-year-old brother flew out from Minnesota to spend time with me and he was giving me lessons on how to date and giving me advice about if they don't open the door for you, they should bring you flowers. I mean, he's gone through this whole things.
Seth Nelson:
So basically he was watching Disney movies to give you dating advice.
Pete Wright:
Yes.
Dawn Fleming:
At that point it sounded pretty good to me because that sort of thing wasn't happening.
Pete Wright:
His best friend are mice and a pumpkin.
Dawn Fleming:
My brother's amazing. And he's been married, they got married young and they have a fantastic relationship. So I'm not going to say anything about my brother.
Seth Nelson:
Pete, I will bet you that he has a car that you just press a button and the door slides open for us.
Pete Wright:
Oh, you think that's it? That's high.
Seth Nelson:
I think that's what happens.
Pete Wright:
High odds. Non-zero.
Dawn Fleming:
Actually, he's a school teacher and he has a big old nasty pickup truck that needs to be replaced. So he's the non swipe.
Dawn Fleming:
So cool teacher. That's cool.
Seth Nelson:
So he presses the button and a ladder comes down. Got it.
Dawn Fleming:
Yeah, that's more like it. That's more like it. But the other thing I did literally, now this is how nerdy I am. I went and got a book and I believe it was literally called How to Be Single.
Pete Wright:
Takes practice.
Dawn Fleming:
And you know what? There was some really, it basically said go to a movie by yourself, go to dinner by yourself, bring a book if you need to, but learn to enjoy your own company.
Seth Nelson:
Let me tell you, going out to dinner, one way to reinvent yourself is to get the confidence to go out to dinner by yourself. And I'll also tell you, in fact, my wife and I were just talking about this last night, that we really make an effort to invite our single friends, especially if they've been divorced, to go out with us. Because you might go out with a couple, but you don't invite the single friend. So we make a special effort to reach out to those people. They're always very appreciative.
And what I do is, because let's say it's a woman who's friendly with my wife, maybe they'll go out for dinner and then I'll meet them up later for drinks. It doesn't have to be always one or the other. You can kind of mix it up, but that is a really good way to do that from the person who is newly single. Don't wait for the call, reach out and say, "I would really love to go out to dinner with you and your husband or you and your partner." And people are going to say yes, but you got to make the effort. It's hard, but it's worth doing.
Pete Wright:
Generally people like to eat that. The steaks are pretty low in that invitation.
Dawn Fleming:
Right. Right. It could be lunch, could be breakfast, could be coffee, whatever. It doesn't even necessarily need to be that. The other thing that I did was get involved with things that I enjoyed doing. I got involved with a tennis group and initially it was just a ladies singles group that met Friday mornings. And through that group I got invited to sub in a mixed doubles Tuesday night group, and then somebody left and I became a part of that group. So that was my Tuesday night thing. I played tennis for two hours.
Pete Wright:
This is for both of you as the one here hasn't been divorced. How do you remind yourself after a divorce of the things that you say used to do but haven't done? Is there a process? Did you find, like you say you get involved in tennis, were you playing tennis before you got married? Were you playing tennis during your marriage? What is it that you do to refresh some of those old habits and behaviors?
Dawn Fleming:
Yeah. In fact, we did. And also golf. I played with my ex and I had played, actually since I was a little kid. I wasn't very good at it because we only get three months of summer in Minnesota. So every year it was starting over again.
Seth Nelson:
It's hard to find the golf ball in the snow, Pete.
Pete Wright:
So many amateur golfers in Minnesota. Let me just tell you that.
Seth Nelson:
You can hit that golf ball right down the fairway in the middle of winter, you're not finding it. It's a white ball and white snow.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Right.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Pete, new year.
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Buckle up. I'm going to answer your question directly. You're not going to believe me.
Pete Wright:
Do you want me to just leave the show?
Seth Nelson:
No, man, I love you man. You make the show, you make it happen.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
I made a list, which is quasi journaling.
Dawn Fleming:
True. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
You're right. It's journal adjacent.
Seth Nelson:
It's journal adjacent.
Pete Wright:
Nice job.
Seth Nelson:
I like that.
Pete Wright:
Do you have the list? Can we recite from the list? Do you remember what you were thinking about at the time?
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I remember the list. Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
So just to refresh everyone's recollection, it was my fault we got divorced. I will never ever blame my former spouse. I lost myself in the relationship. I did not take care of myself the way I should have. So when we split up, I made a list of things that I did not do when I was married that was very important to me before I was married. A big one was exercise.
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
I started training for a triathlon. So I would run, I would swim, I would bike. I really like playing cards, especially poker. And part of the reason I've always liked cards, my parents grew up playing bridge, so I'd watch them play bridge. As a kid I'd play hearts and spades and all these other card games and suit games. So I would play poker. Now the thing about playing poker for me, it also helped me emotionally because when you're doing math, it turns off the emotional side of your brain. So playing cards really help me not wallow in my divorce, like what am I going to do? And I happened to really enjoy it.
Pete Wright:
So you got fit and you started playing cards. You know what you are, you're the Paul Rudd of divorce attorneys, right? He went from soft sitcom star to jacked Marvel star. And that's what you did.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Well, if you look at the photos, I don't think there was that much of a transition.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
But the other thing that I did is I made a list of people that I wanted to reach out to that I hadn't seen in a while. And I was delightfully surprised how much they were like, yeah, let's get together or reached out and all that stuff.
Pete Wright:
Those relationships, it's not like they just die.
Seth Nelson:
Correct.
Pete Wright:
Right. There's something, there was something there. And I think that that goes with the shame of being out of touch for so long is the anxiety that comes with attempting to rekindle a relationship that you feel like might have withered on the vine because you didn't do your part or you didn't reach out. A lot of that is just the story that we're telling ourselves and that once you reach out, you get that it pays for itself. It pays off in spades because you get to rekindle something really special.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. You got it.
Pete Wright:
Okay. So Dawn, back to you rebuilding yourself and playing tennis, let's continue with that process for you. You getting involved with things and not being an island is kind of where we were.
Dawn Fleming:
And then in a moment of insanity, I went to law school.
Pete Wright:
Oh, right.
Dawn Fleming:
And the reason for the insanity, I don't know if I mentioned this, my first husband was a psychiatrist.
Pete Wright:
Oh, okay. The pieces are coming together.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I just got to say it. My head is down. Pete thinks that I'm not listening. I do not advise getting divorced and going to law school.
Dawn Fleming:
Neither do I.
Seth Nelson:
This is not legal advice.
Pete Wright:
Thank you counselors.
Seth Nelson:
This is not legal advice. Check your local jurisdiction, but okay, let's hear it.
Dawn Fleming:
So I went to one of those career counseling. I would've been in real estate. I had a successful career in real estate, but I had this idea that, oh, I needed a real job because working straight commission, when you have a partner with a six figure income is one thing when you're trying to be self-supporting.
I didn't know that I really wanted to continue and I was kind of burned out on it. I'm like, I like making deals, but I think I'm over the rollercoaster ride that is the real estate industry. So I started interviewing attorneys or I did a skills assessment and then they said, "Oh, go talk to some attorneys if you want to go to law school." And I talked to this one attorney, she was second career and she said, you'll get a kick out of this, she said, "I really like being an attorney because," and this is back in the early '90s still, she's like, "Go to a cocktail party and I'll be talking to some," this is Orange County. And the guy says, he talks about himself and what he does and everything. And then he's like, "Well, so what do you do?" She says, "I'm an attorney." And they go, "Oh." And I said, "I want that. I want that respect."
Pete Wright:
Using it as, yeah, relationship respect. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. I got so many issues here, Pete. I don't know.
Dawn Fleming:
I said I'm doing that. I'm doing that.
Seth Nelson:
Do not go to law school to pick up men.
Dawn Fleming:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, she was married. No, no, it wasn't to pick up. It was-
Pete Wright:
Wait, she was picking up men while she was married, Dawn?
Dawn Fleming:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. She was lovely British lady. She was married. In fact, they owned a mortgage company, very successful. She ended up doing immigration law. But it was the respect, and especially as a woman, I mean you guys, don't don't know this, but I mean when I was-
Seth Nelson:
Oh, I know it. My mom graduated law school in the '70s and my grandmother graduated in 1925 from law school, did not get a job because they're a woman.
Dawn Fleming:
Unheard of.
Seth Nelson:
So I hear you, but I get it. So part of rebuilding yourself was to find your own self-esteem. And part of doing that was like, I'm going to go to law school.
Dawn Fleming:
Yes.
Seth Nelson:
I want to get this education. I don't want to be in a job where the income is up and down, up and down, up and down. Then you find yourself in law school.
Dawn Fleming:
Well, I found friends, I found smart friends because what I've learned about myself and some of my mentors have said, "Dawn, you don't suffer fools. You need to be around smart people." I guess that's why I don't live in the US anymore. But anyway.
Pete Wright:
Ouch.
Dawn Fleming:
No offense. No offense.
Seth Nelson:
A little nother topic.
Pete Wright:
Ouch.
Dawn Fleming:
We won't go there.
Seth Nelson:
This is not a political show, Dawn.
Dawn Fleming:
But I will tell you, here in Mexico, both of the major parties have a female candidate running for president. They will have a female president next year or this year.
Pete Wright:
Wow.
Seth Nelson:
Okay. Moving along.
Pete Wright:
All right. All right. You show off.
Dawn Fleming:
Anyway. And the other part of it was actually my freedom to be able to do, I wasn't working. I didn't work my first year in law school. I didn't really know if I was smart. I mean I did okay on the onset, but I was a straight C student with a degree in anthropology. I mean nobody had gone to college in my family, like nobody, no extended aunts, uncles, nothing. So I balls to the walls, I put my head down, I did nothing but study. I worked hard. And when they posted the list, I was number five in the class out of 300 people. And that I said, wow.
Pete Wright:
That does something for your esteem coming out of my relationship.
Dawn Fleming:
I'm smart, because my ex was brilliant, I have to say. And he off the charts scores for the MCAT and all of that, summa cum laude. But I didn't really ever push myself because I didn't have a reason, and I had a reason at that point. So yeah, it was cool, make the dean's list, whatever, but it really did give me that boost at a time in my life where I was pretty down.
Seth Nelson:
Part of what I talk to people about when they're like, okay, what comes next? Right? Because I talk to them about, oh, we can get a final judgment, your divorce, but what comes next is really learning new skills to rebuild yourself. It does not have to be to the extent of go to law school and be in the top five people of your class. I feel like-
Pete Wright:
But it's fascinating to think about what you could do. This is the thing that I think the door is open to a, let's just say a more complete comprehensive renovation of personal identity. You can take the opportunity to do that if you want to.
Seth Nelson:
100%, Pete. And also, you can do stuff that you've never done before, like handle your own finances, and that will give you a sense of confidence when you see the money in, you see the money out, you're getting a job, you're getting employment, you're becoming financially self-sufficient. That is one of the biggest things that you can do to bring confidence to yourself when you know to whatever extent. And give yourself some time. You don't make dean's list and get into law school overnight. You got to study for the LSAT, you got to accept it. You got to fall into the academic year, you got to take the course for a year. You got to take the one exam you get for that class, that's your grade for the year. Right? It takes time. And there's a lot of studying or building along the way. But my point, I guess, Pete, is that there's a lot of different ways to get confidence. It is wide open.
Dawn Fleming:
The other thing that I did, I mentioned the church recovery thing. Like I said, my ex and I were kind of anti-church. His father was a preacher. I won't go into all the gory details there, but we had both kind of said, yeah, not our jam. So when we split up, I really felt like this spiritual void in my life that I wanted to fill. And I didn't really think it was the church that I came from. So I went on this beautiful spiritual journey. No better place to do it than Southern California. I mean there's all kinds of resources there and perspectives and courses and all of that. And it really had a profound effect on me because I really felt like I was more than just someone slogging through life trying to get by. You know what I mean? It was something that added some depth to my soul, my character, my outlook, and having that. I don't think I would've ever done that if we'd have stayed together in such a deep way. For sure.
Pete Wright:
That's the sort of, Dawn, first major transition post-divorce, right? That sort of reinvention. There is another one that happens in reinventing yourself in and for a new relationship. And that's the next part I want to talk about because I think that leads us to this lifestyle that you've cultivated for yourself with your new husband. What is that like? What happened in 2010?
Dawn Fleming:
So I liked being married. I was okay being by myself. I was an only child until I was nine, so it wasn't that hard to adapt, but I really kind of missed that close relationship and yet I had my heart broken, so I really didn't think I would, but I just wanted a relationship. So match.com came along and I started on that whole merry-go-round and being a smart woman and especially an attorney, there were some challenges there, egos and whatnot. But I like to say I kissed frogs for 10 years and then found my prince.
Seth Nelson:
Right back to Disney. She was talking to her brother.
Pete Wright:
Right back to Disney. Maybe the call's coming from inside the house. Maybe Dawn was magnetic for Disney stuff all along.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. Her brother's like he better open the carriage door for you.
Dawn Fleming:
Well, he showed up a diamond in the rough. He was driving an old beat down Porsche 914 living on an old sailboat and he was twice divorced, lost his business in bankruptcy. He was definitely, he'll tell you, he was 50, I was 40. He talks about being a walking cadaver. He really didn't have any dreams. We started out as friends. I told him dating stories from hell that you would never ever tell someone who you were on a date with. That's how our relationship started. And he took me sailing our first two dates to make sure I didn't get seasick, because otherwise he would've kicked me to the curb game over.
Seth Nelson:
It was better than throwing you overboard.
Dawn Fleming:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
Talk about game over, yeah, dark, Seth, really dark.
Dawn Fleming:
But I think one of the reasons that our relationship worked, and I think I actually proposed to him, we'd been together for three years before we got married, but we were both complete human beings. We didn't need each other. At that point in my life, I didn't need anybody. I wanted a relationship, but I didn't need anybody. And he was fine too. I mean he was racing, yacht racing four nights a week, looked like Popeye with bulging arms, I mean in great shape. And he was living his life too, and we just came together.
Pete Wright:
Was he divorced? Did you say that?
Dawn Fleming:
Twice?
Pete Wright:
He been divorced? He was divorced twice. I totally missed that part. Holy cow.
Dawn Fleming:
Oh yeah. You should have seen, we got married in the British Virgin Islands. You should have seen the attorney general who was this great big African American lady look at us because we had to present our divorce decrees. So we had three of them between us. And she's looking at the marriage application with kind of over the glasses like, are you sure?
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. That's behind the scenes, Pete, they're doing the over under on how many years. That's what was happening there.
Pete Wright:
That's what's happening. I get that.
Seth Nelson:
She brought her glasses down and she's like, five years is the over under on this. And she's saying, how seasick do you get there?
Pete Wright:
Right. But this is the thing that I think is so interesting about that, just the experience of tuning yourself for the new relationship and after doing all the reinvention that you'd been doing for yourself. Same thing with him too, right? This idea that you guys together have found yourself in a new direction that you're traveling together parallel at the same time. And that has led you to this really fascinating collection of lives that you live between you and Tom. So do you want to talk about what you've created and the program that you run and tell us a little bit about how that has emerged from this new relationship?
Dawn Fleming:
Sure. And I guess really, I mean it is truly the culmination of decades of experience and going through all these different transitions. And here's the thing, the good news is the more you do it, the better you get at it. It's almost a skillset, right? That the first time you go through it, it's ugly, it's not good, it's uncomfortable. And then each time it seems like it gets a little bit better. I remember one point going, "Really again, are we going through this again?" Asking the universe, do we really have to go through this again?
But at this stage of the game, I think your acceptance gets a lot better. You don't get so freaked out. I think age helps. Welcome to 50 and beyond. I mean it's so freeing in so many ways. You just don't give a shit anymore about some of the stuff that you cared about when you were younger. But I really took some time to think about what I wanted to do. Initially, the way the whole book came about, the business came about is people just kept asking. My husband never met a stranger. We'd go down to the beach, he'd strike up a conversation, kind of marketing our hotel and ask these people where they're from, how long, if they'd been here before, blah, blah, blah. Of course, what do they do. Well, where are you from? Well, we live here. What? You live here? How do you do that?
Seth Nelson:
And you right now is Merida, is that where you are at the point?
Dawn Fleming:
Well, this was in East [inaudible 00:28:08], but in Mexico, on the island where our hotel is. And after about 100 of these conversations, it seems pretty clear that people had some interest in hearing how this came about. So that was how the podcast started. I was like, well, I don't know. Not everybody jumps on a 50-foot sailboat and sails 5,000 miles through the Panama Canal to rebuild your life. So how did these other people do it? Because I kept meeting such interesting experts and wanted to hear their stories. And that's what I did really for the first year and a half of my podcast. It was just my old anthropology degree came in handy. I was doing oral histories from these people and turns out, since I'm very curious, it was easy to ask questions and then it just sort of involved.
Seth Nelson:
And along those line, Pete, as you know, I lived on Grand Cayman for three years. I was 23 to 26 years old.
Pete Wright:
Right. So did Tom Cruise in the firm. I'm not making any allusions to what you did there.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, I understand. He just visited. Okay. He didn't live there. Okay.
Pete Wright:
That's right, Seth. That's right. You said the quiet part out loud again. Counseling.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. Exactly. So it does take a certain type of personality to move to a small Caribbean island. And when you put all those personalities on a small Caribbean island, there is no doubt that the sum is greater than the parts. But even though I was very young, 23 to 26, like I said, there were friends of mine that were in their fifties at the time, in their sixties, and some of them were professionals because of the offshore banking there. And some of them were just vagabonds, literally traveling the world trying to find themselves and they're like, it's just the journey, I'm good.
But there was a lot of lessons that I learned there that I still carry on to this day is that the world can change pretty quick. You get a hurricane that comes through when you're on a small island, there's big problems pretty quick. But with that, I think the biggest thing that I learned is you can overcome a lot. And it's really just taking it one step at a time, figuring out what you want to do, and if you're not sure, get up, try something new. Go find what you used to do before you were divorced that you didn't have time to do. And before you know it, like Dawn said, you're going to be on the mixed doubles team every Tuesday night.
Dawn Fleming:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Well, so Dawn, the podcast is Life in Paradise on a Shoestring.
Dawn Fleming:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And still going.
Dawn Fleming:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
And the book, Claim Your Dream Life, as before we press record, you told me you're about to spin up your program again. And I just want to give you a chance to thoroughly plug all of those things because as a midlife reinvention expert, I think it's really important for people listening to the show to hear the kinds of stuff that you're doing and what people can avail themselves to.
Dawn Fleming:
Well, thank you for that. So the name of the program is Midlife in Paradise in 90 Days or Less. And the stages really mirror the book. So if they get the book, if they're curious, want to see it. But it's really the three phases are clarity and vision, focus and planning, and action and abundance. And the most important one is that clarity and vision. And that's where I really encourage people to dream. Again, that's where actually Tom got really mad. There's a story in the book, but I sent him to this training, network marketing training, and the gentleman that taught it started with what are your dreams? And at 50 years old, he had none. I mean just totally beaten down and a lot of people get that way, especially after divorce. I talked about that earlier, and really trying to, and it's funny, I have it here.
I actually own a magic wand, and so I lend it to people from time to time and say, take my magic wand and just take the governor off. You just won $50 million in the lottery. You can do anything you want to, what are you going to do with it? I played like that in the network marketing space. But I think in this midlife phase, it's critical to really do that exercise and say, I believe in a world where on your deathbed, you'd never look back and think what if? And that's what it's all about.
Seth Nelson:
I had the privilege of celebrating someone who's very close me with their 80th birthday and they said at 80, you hit 50 and 60, you're like, okay. But at 80 you kind of look back at your life. And he said the best thing about his life is he was lucky. He was lucky with his family. He was lucky in where he was in life at a certain time and how that impacted the business that he decided to go in and his career. And I told him that I thought if someone ever asked me how to describe him is he was that steady rudder. He just kept going. No matter what was happening, and I've known him a long time now, ups or downs, he's just steady as can go, and you know what, you're going to get every day that he shows up. And I think getting that for yourself to know that you're going to be steady for yourself and there'll be some ups and downs, but if you can just keep going and sail through that squall of that storm, you're going to be okay.
Dawn Fleming:
Yeah. Well, I would challenge the lucky part because I think we make our own luck. The harder you work, the luckier you get is kind of the thing. And I don't mean hard work like physical work, but I mean whether it's the self-respect, reflection work or the relationship work or putting that work-
Seth Nelson:
Or putting the time at the law library in turn to be the top five in your class.
Dawn Fleming:
It's amazing how lucky you can get when that happens.
Seth Nelson:
And Pete, just so you know, in the firm, when he's getting the job interview, they say you're in the top 5% of hers class. He corrects them and says, no, top five.
Pete Wright:
Top five.
Seth Nelson:
Just like Dawn. They had to cut the just like Dawn part in the movie?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
That's what he was saying.
Pete Wright:
That's what he was saying. I get it. I hear now.
Dawn Fleming:
Well, that was just the first semester. That wasn't where I ended up.
Seth Nelson:
But she doesn't want to say she ended up at three.
Pete Wright:
This goes back to, we've been talking in some other circles about this book Four Thousand Weeks by Oliver Burkeman, which is an incredible book. And the whole premise is we all get about the same 4,000 weeks in our lives and I realized doing the math, I've got about 1,351 weeks left. How am I going to live those weeks? What is, the weeks when you start talking about weeks as your unit of life measurement, they don't seem very high, those numbers, and it really does make you focus. It makes you wonder. So anyhow, Dawn, this is a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for showing up, for hanging out with us for talking about introducing your work. Where do you want to send people to learn more about you? What's the best URL?
Dawn Fleming:
I would say if you're interested in the book, claimyourdreamlifebook.com is where you can go to that. I actually have a free plus shipping offer, so you can get a free copy of the book, just pay for shipping. And then the podcast, lifeinparadisepodcast.com, there's information there. Of course, wherever you get your podcasts, so it's another place to find me. Dawnfleming.com has information about me. I'm going to be looking at doing some more speaking out in the world this year in order to reach more people and get my message out there.
Pete Wright:
Well, thank you for doing just that right here, Dawn, we appreciate you. We are now going to turn our attention to a listener question. Seth, are you ready for this?
Seth Nelson:
I'm ready. First one of the year. Here we go.
Pete Wright:
Seth, this question comes from RL and the question is, thus, I loved today's interview with Justine Weber. This was on December 12th. This isn't really a question about that, but for Seth, to what extent do you see your clients with emotional dysregulation? And how does dealing with any sort of emotional disorder as a client impact your work as an attorney on this, on their case?
Seth Nelson:
Man, that's a great question to start the year off with.
Pete Wright:
I know, right?
Seth Nelson:
Because it really goes to the difference between being attorney and counselor at law. So part of what I need to do as an attorney is to figure out how to communicate with my client and I cannot just use my preferred communication style. I have to meet them where they are and find the right way to get them to see the issue in a different way. So if it is an emotional issue about a certain item in the house that they're arguing about or who's going to keep the house, or it might not just be for the kids, it might be just because I love living in this neighborhood, but you have to find a way to communicate to get people to look at their problems and potential solutions in different ways.
And when you have clients who have some difficulties in going through very difficult times or have emotional difficulties, it can be very challenging. That's one of the reasons why family law is a difficult practice area. There is an attorney in town who does nothing but traffic violations, and if you get a speeding ticket, this is the guy you call. Now, he has an extremely busy practice, and I'm not saying he doesn't have stresses in life, but I've got three people that I've referred to him that he handled their ticket and we sent him the money and he never talked to the client at all. And he got the case dismissed on looking at what the police officer wrote on the ticket, comparing it to the law and saying, this isn't going to fly. Okay?
Pete Wright:
Okay.
Seth Nelson:
It was the same motion he filed in all three cases.
Pete Wright:
Just like change the name.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. And some other things. Now he's doing solid good legal work because he's looking at that ticket, he's applying it to the law. He's saying this isn't you didn't get your due process. And there's a Florida Supreme Court case that he uses. He does great work. I don't think that he has the stresses of running a practice or dealing with clients that I do. Okay.
Pete Wright:
He's more attorney, less counselor.
Seth Nelson:
I would say so. Now, I don't know about his other ones. God forbid if it was a DUI or something really bad.
Pete Wright:
He's probably getting those clients too. Yeah.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. So I'm not disparaging him in any way, but there's just different areas of practice in different skill sets to do that. So one, I try to find out if my client has mental illness. I have read books about mental illness. I've read books about communication skills in style. So that's just the work that I've done because I want to do better at what I do and I'm always trying to improve. One thing I've learned is I'd never ask anyone, does that make sense? Because if it says, does that make sense? I am discounting my own ability to communicate an idea. So what I say instead is, do you have any questions?
Pete Wright:
Okay. That's better.
Seth Nelson:
So there's little things like that. And if I don't think they understand, I will say, please repeat back to me what you think I told you. And I make them explain the law to me that I just explained to them because then I know we're communicating. And if they can't do it, I do it again in a different way. So it is very difficult. I appreciate the question. And then just sometimes it just takes time. Sometimes they're just not ready to settle yet because they just called me and they're in the throes of it and we don't even have the information.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. This is the thing. We've talked about rejection sensitivity. There are people who truck in rejection sensitivity, and that can mean they're not ready to talk about anything, and yet here they are thrust into a divorce process.
Seth Nelson:
Right. 100%.
Pete Wright:
All right.
Seth Nelson:
RL, thank you.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Great, great, great new year question. Thank you so much for writing in and if you out there listener, dear listener, want to get your question answered by Seth Nelson, you should send it in, because just visiting howtosplitatoaster.com and clicking submit a question, we'll get that question on the air. I can just about promise that. And they are starting to stack up after our listener questions extravaganza, I've heard it referred to as a divorce montage, an audio divorce montage. I'm not making that up and I'm really excited about it. It was a great episode and we answered a lot of questions and we'd like to get more of your questions on every episode of this show. So again, howtosplitatoaster.com, submit a question there.
Seth Nelson:
I really appreciate the questions because we had a whole show of them because we couldn't fit them all in. We take a short break with a bonus episode and we already have more questions. And if you have the question, somebody out there listening does too, so you're really doing a service to them.
Pete Wright:
Thank you everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We sure appreciate your time and your attention. On behalf of our guest today, Dawn Fleming and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney. I'm Pete Wright. We'll catch you back here next week on How to Split a Toaster: A Divorce Podcast About Saving Your Relationships.
Outro:
How to Split A Toaster is part of the TrueStory FM podcast network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T. Bless & the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce & Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce & Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
