How the F*ck Do I Heal from This? with Dr. Justine Weber
Navigating Narcissistic Relationships and Healing After Divorce
Seth and Pete welcome Dr. Justine Weber, a psychologist who helps people recover from narcissistic abuse. They discuss how to identify narcissistic behaviors, cope with divorce from a narcissist, and heal after leaving the relationship.
The conversation focuses on rebuilding your sense of self and reality after narcissistic conditioning. Justine offers insights into childhood attachment styles and trauma responses that can lead people to end up with narcissistic partners.
Questions we answer in this episode:
How do you detach from a narcissist's distortions of reality?
What strategies help rebuild your confidence during and after divorce?
How can you take back power after years of narcissistic control?
Key Takeaways:
Forgiving yourself is critical to overcoming narcissistic abuse.
Documenting the truth can counteract gaslighting.
Stay focused on your priorities rather than trying to control everything.
Overall, this episode explores thoughtful strategies for healing and reclaiming your life after leaving a narcissistic relationship. Justine offers compassionate guidance to help anyone struggling with these issues.
Links & Notes
Find Dr. Justine Weber on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, or Her Website
Got a question you want to ask on the show? Click here!
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Pete Wright:
Welcome to How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships from TruStory FM. Today it's time for your toaster to heal the fuck up.
Seth Nelson:
Welcome to the show everybody. I'm Seth Nelson, and as always, I'm here with my good friend, Pete Wright. Today we're talking about the Big Narcissist Reset.
Dr. Justine Weber is a California licensed psychologist and she specializes in helping women heal and recover from narcissistic abuse. She's certified in Tina Swithin's high conflict divorce coaching and helps them navigate high conflict divorces in dealing with the legal battles. Fresh on the shelves is Dr. Weber's new book, How the Fuck Do I Heal From This?: Understanding Narcissistic Abuse and How to Put Your Life Back Together. And she's here to give us a tour of her healing process today.
Justine, welcome to the Toaster.
Justine Weber:
Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.
Pete Wright:
Justine, number one, we got to talk about the title of your book. I love it so much. You work blue apparently in your practice. Is that what I'm saying? Is that what I'm hearing?
Justine Weber:
Yeah.
Pete Wright:
How the Fuck Do I Heal From This?: Understanding Narcissistic Abuse and How to Put Your Life Back Together. Love the title. Who came up with it and what did it take to make sure that it actually stuck on the cover of the book as the official title?
Justine Weber:
Yes. So that's a really good question and I really am glad that you like the title. I've kind of had this people basically in two categories. They either love it and really resonate or they're like, "Ooh, you can't do that. That will not sell. People will not even have that in their house and everything."
Seth Nelson:
And those are the people that need the book the most.
Pete Wright:
They need the book the most, exactly.
Justine Weber:
And they do. I know. For one, fuck is a fun word to say, let's just put it out there.
Pete Wright:
Deeply satisfying.
Seth Nelson:
This is going to be a great fucking podcast.
Pete Wright:
Yeah. Oh, God.
Justine Weber:
It's just a fun word to say. And when people come to me and hire me to help them heal from this, they're really at this place where they're just at a loss. They're angry. A lot of them, I always, in the consultation, I always ask them, "When did you realize this was narcissism?" And I get answers from five days ago to a week ago, to three months ago to I've always known, but they're just at this place where they're like, "Really? That's what this is? All of this suffering and pain that I've been dealing with my entire life, for 20 years, for 15 years, that's what this is." It's almost like they kind of want a therapist to say, "No, this is cancer," or something like that. It's like, "That's all this is," because then it's like, "Oh, but they don't change."
So then that's kind of where the anger comes in because it's like, "Wait, I've invested all of these years. I've invested everything into this relationship and you're telling me that he can't change and that this will never change. What the fuck do I do now?" So they're just kind of at this stage really.
So I wanted to put the word what the fuck actually, so initially it was Understanding Narcissistic Abuse: What the Fuck? But anyways, my team was like, "No. That's kind of weird." And so they came up with this and I was like, "You know what? I like it. I like it."
Pete Wright:
No, it's good. It's good.
Seth Nelson:
What I find so interesting about this conversation is that there are support groups for kids whose parents suffer from alcoholism. There are support groups for people who have a loved one who's going through cancer. And I just find it fascinating with your book is this is all about you were with a narcissist, but you were the one being abused. So how do I recover from the decisions that I made that put me in this situation that I now have to get through on my own and I can no longer "blame" the narcissist who was sitting next to me or across the table or in my bed or whatever, an analogy you want to use there, but it's not like you're saying, "I have cancer. How do I get through cancer?" It's a little bit one step removed, but it was so impactful on how that person dealt with you and how it just changed your life. So I am really looking forward to this conversation.
Pete Wright:
I think Seth, I think you're right on it because I think for me, in the conversations we've had about narcissism, everything we're describing is the person who's the narcissist is the emotional garbage disposal. They just take everything you feel and they grind it all up and then do nothing with it. It's just flushed away. Nothing ever comes back to help you heal.
And this is the thing. Once you experience it, once you are in the space of it and even say you figure out, this is how I know I have to leave my life free of this person, of this relationship, how do you reclaim agency in your life to be a determinant part of your future? How do you open up your path ahead and figure out, I can make choices now. I can make choices that don't have to respect this other poisonous part of my life.
Seth Nelson:
All right, Justine answer it all in like 33 minutes.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, we're going to need ... That's right. We got a tight 20.
Justine Weber:
Second step is that, and then for step one ...
Pete Wright:
Is profit.
Justine Weber:
[inaudible 00:05:54] totally this ever again. The thing I noticed, Seth with people, with almost everybody that I work with, and this is such a big piece of the treatment, is there's actually self-blame. That's what it is, it's self-blame.
I mean, these people are suffering because they've been drowned in for potentially years of feeling like everything is their fault. This is me. Because the narcissist was so savvy and so good at convincing, manipulating, controlling, creating those thoughts in the victim.
And so a big piece of the treatment is really to detach from that, to forgive yourself and through radical acceptance, the reality is look, I don't like what's in front of me. I didn't believe that I married this person. I thought he was someone else.
And for the record too, just to be PC, I'm referring to a narcissist as he and I did this in my book. I'm very clear that lots of women are narcissists. I did this for simplicity purposes. I didn't want to do the he-she thing, but also just personally, 90% of the people I work with and have ever worked with are women. I do have clients that are men as well, so I don't want to act like it's ...
Seth Nelson:
Yep. No, we're good. Appreciate the clarification. She's referring to me Pete.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Seth Nelson:
She says the narcissist is me.
Pete Wright:
The present company absolutely accept it. Yeah, all right.
Justine Weber:
I'll just for simplicity, I'll just say you two basically.
Seth Nelson:
Yeah. Okay. That'd be good, Pete and Seth.
Pete Wright:
So Seth the narcissist and then Pete needs the healing. Got it.
Justine Weber:
The grandiose narcissist. But this is a huge piece of it. It's just this. That's why when people come to me, they're overwhelmed. They've got complex PTSD. They're angry. They're at a loss. They're feeling hopeless.
Seth Nelson:
And Justine, this isn't unique to people who have been abused by narcissists. A lot of times if you are the person who was the mark and you got fooled, you feel bad about it. I did something wrong. And here's a little example.
My father just passed away not too long ago. But about a year ago, and he was almost 83, he sent $250 to an email scam thing and he just beat himself up about it. He was like, "Oh my god, I can't believe I got fooled. I should know better." And I was like, "Dad, it's okay." First off it was 250 bucks, not 250,000.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right.
Seth Nelson:
But I just saw him take all this blame and I'm like, "Dad, there's a reason why my brother and I watch your emails and watch your account so you don't get taken advantage of, and that's where you are in your life, but we're here for you. We got you. Don't worry about it. You didn't do anything wrong." And it went right to his heartstrings. He thought he was helping his sister.
Justine Weber:
That's innocent.
Seth Nelson:
It's very innocent. So this isn't just, I know we're going to talk about healing from narcissism, but is it fair to say this is very common when you get had or something happened, you blame yourself?
Justine Weber:
Absolutely. When you feel like you've been betrayed or lied to or screwed. The reason why we tend to, and it's everybody, why we blame ourselves is because that's where we feel like we have more control. Feeling like you don't have any control over a situation and you cannot escape it, it is the worst experience and feeling in the world. So if we blame ourselves, we can't control that scammer who did that. We can't control our father and how he raised us. We can't control our ex and what he did to us. But we can control this narrative that we create in our brains to make sense of it because the brain, it's easier for us to gravitate toward, "Oh, this is my fault. I should have known."
That's what I hear all the time too. "I should have known. I saw all the red flags. I should have known. I saw this. I stayed. I'm such an idiot. I'm so stupid." You've been screwed by someone or betrayed. "I should have known. I'm such an idiot. Why did I do that?"
It's kind of almost a little bit easier for the brain to make sense of that, but that's actually not helpful. That's the thing. So when there's been trauma, the best thing that we can do through being lying to or betrayed is to give ourselves compassion. Compassion is the piece where you can implement and almost replace this negative internal narrative. "I'm such an idiot. I should have known. I'm so stupid, I can't-
Seth Nelson:
Yeah, you got to forgive yourself, right? Give yourself a pass.
Justine Weber:
Or give yourself and really just this radical acceptance, but be kind to yourself. If your friend was like, "Hey, I got screwed. I thought this person was real and I gave them $50,000," would you be like, "Oh my God, you're such an idiot. What's wrong with you?"
Seth Nelson:
That's what Pete told me the other day. That's what Pete said to me.
Pete Wright:
50 grand? Maybe. I'd have words.
Seth Nelson:
He goes, "I can't believe you didn't get taken for a hundred."
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Wait a second, because I think this is actually really interesting, Seth's jokes aside. The fact that rejection sensitivity, like being hypersensitive to this feeling of betrayal, rejection, dishonesty, is that more prevalent in someone who has been sort of conditioned in a narcissistically abusive relationship? Is that something that is a learned behavior?
Justine Weber:
I think it absolutely can. Like to have more experiences like this later in life, is that what you're asking?
Pete Wright:
Yeah.
Justine Weber:
Everything kind of goes back to childhood, unfortunately. I don't mean to blame ...
Pete Wright:
It's always Seth's childhood.
Justine Weber:
It's always the mother. Well, I always-
Seth Nelson:
Both my parents have passed now, I blame them for all sorts of shit.
Pete Wright:
Everything.
Seth Nelson:
They can't fight back me.
Pete Wright:
Plausible deniability.
Justine Weber:
Let's just be frank about it. And it's not even about blaming, it's about understanding. It's about getting a full template of why you behave in this way, why you connect with these people in that way.
Seth Nelson:
And it's not negative as well. Everyone thinks it's a blame, but ...
Justine Weber:
It's not. No.
Seth Nelson:
I totally understand my wife more after I got to know her parents better. There can be positives, there can be negatives, there could be strengths, there could be weaknesses, whatever you want to say. But yeah.
Justine Weber:
I mean it's about forgiving yourself and being able to, you're more able to offer yourself that self-compassion and kindness and replace it with the negative self-talk if there is a basis of understanding because then you have a template of why you think the way that you do or why you interpret things in that way. And so it kind of gives you a different framework of like, "Oh, okay, so I trust too easily." Or maybe what's very common with children who have been raised with a narcissistic parent is they tend to be a people pleaser.
The trauma responses are fight, freeze, flee, and the fourth one is fawn. So fawning is this trauma response when maybe you're about to get eaten by a tiger or something and you just kind of give up and you try to appease and please the abuser. So this is a very common reaction and it's really a coping mechanism because it's not an option to sit there and confront your narcissistic dad who's super aggressive and angry and blames you or possibly violent. You kind of have to be like, "Okay, I'm sorry it was me. I'll work on that." You're trying to appease and please the abuser.
Seth Nelson:
How do you break through all that after it's over?
Justine Weber:
That takes a lot of work. I'd love to be, "Just book two sessions with me and you're good to go." I think this is where having that framework of the why and understanding ... So in the treatment with all my clients, we kind of go back to their parents and what was it like in the upbringing? What attachment style did you develop? Did it feel safe in your childhood? What were you afraid of? Who did you connect with? Did you ever feel safe?
And so when we unpack that, this is how we're better able to replace a lot of the negative internal critic talk with self-compassion, being kind to ourselves, self-forgiveness, but then also noticing abusive and bad behavior and calling it out because children who are raised in environments like this, they don't know. How could you know? I mean there's a piece where it's familiar. If that's all you know, it's comfortable. And so this is the template that gets ingrained and is almost like this lens in which you use in life to connect.
I mean when I met, it stems back to my mother, but when I met my ex-husband, it was like I'm like, "This is great. It's perfect. I'm used to this. I'm just going to adapt. I'm going to be a people pleaser. I'm going to do everything. I'm going to say, 'Sure, no problem.' I'm not going to have any needs. I'm not going to have any boundaries because I don't need them, and I'm going to be manipulated and controlled and everything's going to be great." That was like that's what I was used to.
Seth Nelson:
You know, they don't really put that on the Hallmark card when you get married. I was just buying cards for a young wedding, a young couple, and I didn't see that in the Hallmark card section.
Justine Weber:
Why not?
Seth Nelson:
Congratulations on your marriage. You're about to be manipulated, controlled, no worth, no boundaries.
Pete Wright:
Right. Congratulations. Roll over.
Justine Weber:
It's going to be great. Well, it's funny you say that actually 'cause I have a little bit of creative side, but actually I think it's in my second chapter. It starts off the wedding day. And so it starts off like you've met the man of your dreams and he's a 10 and successful, good-looking, intelligent, savvy, all this stuff. And so the wedding officiate is like, "Dear, are you sure you want to marry this person? Soon after you say I do, your entire life is going to be sucked out of you. You are going to put all of your needs aside and he's basically going to destroy your life. Are you sure you want to marry this person?"
Seth Nelson:
I'm in because we got a great buffet and the DJ is awesome.
Pete Wright:
What's going to get me to the tiramisu fastest?
Justine Weber:
Yeah, just send me to the cocktail table.
Pete Wright:
Well, man, I've got this. I want to build a framework for those who are listening to this. I think my biggest question is, is it possible for you to wake up on your own? Everything we're describing seems so cemented from so long ago that it almost feels like it requires some sort of an intervention. Is that fair?
Justine Weber:
I would say the majority of the time, yes. So I notice that when women do wake up is usually when they've left. So when they left and they're away from the person and maybe there's this no contact, that's when they're able to kind of grasp a different framework. But when you're in the relationship and this is what you're used to and this is what's comfortable and familiar and all of that, even though you're experiencing so much pain and your body's telling you, no, this is not good, this is not safe, this is abusive. At some point I think things just become so bad.
That's what happened to me. I reached this point and I didn't realize actually until, I mean even me. So that's why I say I have a lot of compassion for people because if anybody should have known, I should have known.
Pete Wright:
Yeah, right. Well, that's cognitive dissonance too, right? Because what you're describing is it's comfortable because of the framework, the worldview, but also very painful because of the day-to-day sort of abuses and slights against you.
Justine Weber:
It's so hard to see it when you're in it. The thing that can help is 'cause I do work with women who are still in the relationship and some of them are just, "I get it. Justine, I realize this is really bad and it's probably going to kill me, but I just can't leave," for whatever reason, financial, citizenship, for your children, a whole list. I get it. And so there's different kinds of tools and strategies you can put in place to kind of coast through it.
But when you're in it, if you're seeing a therapist, if you have friends that have a healthy mindset that you can trust, where when you talk to them, they're like, "Wow, I get it. I'm so sorry. This is really screwed up." Just to verify that because you need somebody to verify how fucked up and dysfunctional this is. Because if all you're hearing and feeling and seeing is in the house and he's drilling in you how it's you, you're the problem and you don't want to believe how fucked up this is. And so the cognitive dissonance surfaces and it's like, "Well, he's had a really rough day," or, "He had a bad childhood," or, "He's an [inaudible 00:19:46]" we make excuses and justify and minimize to make sense of what's in front of us, but this just hurts us in the long term.
Pete Wright:
Well, I think it's fascinating, and I know some of the work that you do is in helping people navigate high conflict divorces. Seth, how does this play out in divorce?
Seth Nelson:
I think everything Justine says and then add me into the equation. So I'm representing wife in this hypothetical, right? Okay. Husband's the narcissist. First off, he's not allowed to know what I talked to my client about. Now she might tell him, but when he is no longer getting the responses from her that have worked for so many years, he's going to start ratcheting it up, pulling different levers. And here are common things that I hear my clients who are being abused by a narcissist say to me, one, "My husband says that you're only in it for the money. You don't care about the kids or her. You're just billing, billing, billing," 'cause that's a common attack.
"You don't have to listen to him. You get to make your own decision." I actually agree with that. My client doesn't have to listen to me and she can make her own decision, but the way he's saying that is basically saying, "Don't listen to him. Do what I say."
Then there will be, "We're waiting on your lawyer. We're always waiting on him. He's the one slowing the process down. Not my lawyer, not me, him," like I'm the problem. So here are some tools that I use with my clients to show them to combat those type of conversations. When it says that I'm the problem and I'm slowing it down, every email I send to opposing counsel, I CC myself and I send it to my client. "Here's the update. We just sent over a revised parenting plan and marital settlement agreement for your review," I say to the opposing side. "Here's the updated one my client has approved. Please get with your client. Let me know your thoughts."
I immediately send that to my client. So when the narcissist says, "We're waiting on your lawyer, Seth is dragging his feet," she can say, "He sent the email three weeks ago and he did a follow-up every single Tuesday." And I encourage them to ship it right over. They're allowed to talk to their spouse, I can't talk to them directly, but if they want to share that email, boom, send it over because it undercuts their mantra of I'm the problem, the lawyer's the problem, the lawyer's the problem, the lawyer's the problem.
Justine Weber:
Yep.
Pete Wright:
And the natural sense of gaslighting.
Justine Weber:
Exactly.
Pete Wright:
How easy it is to take control of the narrative through false ... falsity, right?
Justine Weber:
Right. And so the narcissist is going to blame anybody around who is accessible, where he can gain more control and to get basically what he wants. And a way that I help. You're absolutely right, Seth. A way that I work with my clients to help build and foster that reality in themselves because they've lost that with the gaslighting. I mean, their sense of what is true, what's not true, it's just been squashed. But a way that you can rebuild that is to write things down.
So I always say, "What did your eyes show you? What did your ears tell you? Write it down." So your ex is telling you this, but I wrote this down and I saw this. That's your proof. That's your proof. And you can continue to rebuild from that. And then eventually, hopefully with time, what he's telling the victim eventually begins to have less intensity. It's like the voice becomes softer. It's like, "Yeah, this is what he is saying." But it takes time to build that.
Seth Nelson:
And a question that I ask my clients frequently is, do you care what he says? Do you care?
Pete Wright:
Loaded question, right? If you're conditioned in a narcissistic abusive relationship, you probably care a lot, but you don't know why.
Justine Weber:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
Exactly. You hit it right out of the park Pete, because they'll say all these things that are bad. The husband to the wife, my client will tell the wife, "You're no good. You're good for nothing. You can never get a job." And turning around and saying to court, "She could get a million dollar job. I don't want to pay alimony." They talk out of both sides of their mouth. And I said, "How many times has your husband said bad things about me that you've reported to me?" And she says, "Every week when I talk to you." I said, "Do you think that negatively impacts me in any way?" She goes, "No." I said, "Why not?" She's like, "You don't care." "Exactly. I don't care what he says about me."
Pete Wright:
But rewiring seems to take a ... You talked about it already, Justine. It's like the tanks work. Where do you rewire in your brain to not care about this person?
Justine Weber:
What you're really doing is you're forming new pathways in the brain and detaching from old patterns, and this is through healing and growth is the more that you have experiences like that and the more questions you ask yourself like, "Why do I care? What am I getting from it?" Even if they don't have an answer, they probably don't, think about it, because it's probably something they've never thought about just as you said.
Every time you ask those questions that are insightful, that are ways to foster and regrow your reality and your truth, it carves out those pathways to the brain and it becomes a little bit easier and easier to practice and to get access to each time. So even if you don't know the answer, it's okay.
Seth Nelson:
And another thing on that Justine is kind of what you're saying of what do they say? Write down what you saw. I tell my clients all the time, "I don't care what he says to you," and I'm saying this very strongly for the example purposes. "What I care is what his lawyer files in court. I'm going to take all your money. You're going to be homeless. You dumb ass bitch. I can't believe you would ever think about leaving me. You're never going to find anybody." And all my client hears is you're going to be homeless and you're never going to see your kids. That's what he said. I said, "That's not going to happen. He didn't even file in court asking for the house. He didn't even file in court asking to have 100% time-sharing or custody of the children," which doesn't exist in Florida.
So when I tell you I don't care, I'm telling you from a legal perspective, yes, it's emotional. Yes, he's pushing your buttons. Yes, he's trying to control. Yes, we have to deal with all that. But one way of dealing with it is not to. Now they hate that. The narcissist hates that.
Justine Weber:
You're so right because it's like when you don't respond, I always say, not reacting or responding to a narcissist is cutting their oxygen off. It's like they can't stand it 'cause that's how they get the control, when they're-
Seth Nelson:
Their lifeblood-
Justine Weber:
... freaking out and just losing their mind. But all of these clients, and that's a big piece of my work and your work it sounds like, is really trying to regulate their nervous system, trying to grow and foster their executive functioning skills because they're all in fight or flight. And so when you're in fight or flight, worst case scenario is going to happen. I'm going to die. I'm going to be on the street, I'm going to be homeless. All of the worst case scenario, which never happens, but it feels very real and it feels very present and likely. And so when you kind of sit down calmly, and that's why writing is a really helpful tool because you can kind of see clearly what the truth is, and then from there, assess what is the likelihood of this actually happening. On a scale from zero to 10, what's the likelihood of it?
Seth Nelson:
Right.
Pete Wright:
Is it fair to say that all divorces in this circumstance divorcing a narcissist, all divorces in this circumstance are a high conflict divorce?
Justine Weber:
All of them I would say no.
Pete Wright:
Is it possible to peacefully divorce a narcissist?
Seth Nelson:
I'm going to say no to that. The only time I've ever really seen it is when the narcissist has moved on to another victim, where they're beating their head against the wall. They're trying to run my client through the wringer. We're fighting for our client. We're doing everything ethically, honestly, professionally, and you go to court and they start losing. And they'll never say it because they'll blame the judge. They'll blame me. They'll blame their lawyer and fire that lawyer and get a new lawyer. It's always somebody else's fault. But at some point they're not getting the responses Pete that they expect in their narcissist's brain and they're going to go get it. They're going to go get that drug somewhere else, and then they move on to a new victim, is how I view it.
Justine Weber:
I do agree with you. I hate using the words every case, always, have I ever-
Seth Nelson:
Pete's very right or wrong, left or right.
Justine Weber:
Right.
Pete Wright:
One, zero.
Justine Weber:
I mean, have I ever seen a peaceful divorce? I would have to say no. But I think also my measuring stick of high conflict is a little skewed 'cause I've seen just really just nasty, nasty cases. So I think the way that I measure it is probably a little jaded.
However, what I will say is to your point, Seth, what I've noticed is what can reduce the intensity of the high conflict is sometimes when you strategically almost give the narcissist what they're wanting so they feel like they're winning and like they're in control. Sometimes that can help alleviate the intensity of the high conflict or the duration of it. I mean, if this is something that's maybe been going on for two years.
Some examples of that would be kind of like money. Sometimes money is ... If a woman's like, "You know what? This isn't worth it. I just need to get my life back. This is destroying me. I need to put an end to this." If she has the capacity and the means to basically start over from nothing, in some cases I would say, "Do it. Do it."
Seth Nelson:
Oh, we have that discussion all the time with a narcissist or not. There is a emotional toll of going through a divorce trial, and I compare it to a surgery. We're going to cut you open, it's going to be ugly and there's going to be scars. So let's try to limit that. "So if we can get a deal," I tell a client, "I can do better for you in court. But I like going to court. You don't."
Justine Weber:
I'm not the one suffering physically at night-time not sleeping.
Seth Nelson:
The night before your trial, I'm telling you I am woefully over-prepared. I'm ready. I'm probably going to kick back and have a glass of wine the night before trial. You're not going to be doing that, right? So there is certainly the point of take less to be done.
There's also the financial cost. If you are arguing over money that is going to be eaten up by the cost of litigation, you should settle your case and you get all that emotional baggage done.
Pete Wright:
A question about carrying through post-divorce, because you brought up baggage. Let's talk about kids. Is that a bad segue? Maybe it's a bad segue. I'm not calling all kids baggage, but some of them have a bit of a heavy load. No, that's a joke.
Seth Nelson:
Listen, some of them are carry on and some you just want to check them underneath. Okay?
Justine Weber:
For sure.
Seth Nelson:
Put a tag on them.
Pete Wright:
What's your experience watching ... through the context of rebuilding your life after a narcissistic relationship, you get the divorce. You still in some capacity largely have to deal with this person if you have kids of that age. What does that relationship need to look like in order to maintain the healthy boundaries that you're trying to cultivate and still get something done and raise healthy kids?
Justine Weber:
Oh, that's such a tough question. I think this is where you have to be really clear about what your boundaries are, what your needs are, ways to set those boundaries. Flexibility, adaptability is a huge piece of it as well.
Seth Nelson:
Can we talk about that for a minute, that flexibility and adaptability, because people in my experience change what they're fighting for, and here's what I mean. You're dealing with a narcissist. And I tell my client, "Look, he's not going to change. So be flexible." You have a, let's call it a 50-50 time-sharing, custody, visitation. It's even. And he constantly is calling last minute and saying, "I can't take the kids. You need to pick them up. I can't take the kids. You need to pick them up." Now, this is a guy that was going to go to trial over 50-50.
Justine Weber:
This happens all the time, every time.
Seth Nelson:
And he's giving away what he was fighting for. And my client will call me and say, "I'm always rearranging my schedule. I'm always doing this." And I said, "Okay, I appreciate how that's fricking annoying and you feel like he's getting the upper hand, but what's more important to you? You have your kids."
Justine Weber:
Exactly.
Seth Nelson:
"And that's what you told me you wanted. If I would've told you, you're going to have your kids 75% of the time, 50% you know when it's going to be, the other 25% is going to be last minute, will you take them, you would be like, 'Yeah, I'll drop anything I'm doing to have my kids.'" But there's this control factor that's happening. That's what they're mad about. And I say, "Let that go. He's giving them to you. That's what you wanted." So a lot of it is refocusing what is important to you.
Now, I have other situations where they just, the kids stop going, maybe they go every other weekend and now you have them 80% of the time. And then they call and tell me, "I want more child support. I have them all the time." I said, "Remember my notes? Let me pull them out. The reality you told me. I'll take no child support if I can get my kids 80% of the time before we went to litigation. You have that now. Don't kick the bear."
Justine Weber:
Be really clear about what problem you're trying to solve here. And through flexibility and adaptability, and this is where you kind of have to just change the way that you interpret things. It can be very triggering when you've been controlled and manipulated for 20 years or 15 years and then he's making changes last minute. It can feel like, oh, of course, because I'm worthless, because my time is not valuable and everything. But for women, if you are really wanting the majority of the time with your children rather than fighting, because they all do this, they all fight for 50% out of nowhere. They've never done anything with these kids for probably 15, 20 years. But now after the divorce, it's like, "Oh, I'm dad of the year," again for their ego. "I need to prove how I'm such a great dad and need to be around my kids."
Seth Nelson:
Which I think is hilarious. I think it's hilarious because they say, "I need a piece of paper that says I'm 50-50, because look, I'm going to show I have 50-50."
Justine Weber:
Yes, it's all for the image.
Seth Nelson:
And then you're going to hang out with your buddies and you're going to talk about how you got 50-50 and they're with you 75% of the time, your friends, and the kids aren't around. Or you say that to the new girlfriend, yeah, I have 50-50, and then she never meets them. It's very bizarre.
Justine Weber:
This is where it's like, or my favorite thing is a babysitter. So you have the kids for barely 50% of the time, and then when you have the kids, you have a babysitter 100% of the time. I see this a lot too. It's like why have a babysitter if you can't watch the kids? Just give them back to their mom. But it's like this control thing. No, they go tell their friends, "I have them 50. I'm such a great dad."
But this is where strategically what I like to kind of guide my clients in is like, look, there's a saying, you can't reason with somebody who's not reasonable. You can't have logic with somebody who's not logical, but you can manipulate a manipulator. And so strategically be creative with how you phrase things.
For example, I had a client, 50-50. She was really angry about it. She ended up letting it go 'cause I was like, "Look, is this a battle you really want to fight for? Chances are he's probably going to give you the kids the majority of the time anyway. So just let him feel like he's won."
"If you call your ex and just give them what they want to hear, 'The kids love being with you, and they always get so excited when they go see dad. I also do know that you work so hard, you're so successful at your job and it's very demanding. Whenever you have visitation of the kids, you need a break too, because you work so hard and you're so successful. The kids and I really appreciate the money you give us. Whenever you need a break or if you just need to work or you're on a business trip, I will take care of the kids, no questions asked. I will go pick them up at any time. And it's not a problem because you need a break too even though the kids are really sad when they don't see their dad.'"
That strategy actually, eventually, 'cause she said this a number of times to him in a different way, and eventually it kind of did work. She absolutely has the kids 70% of the time. Whenever he goes on a business trip, a party trip, whatever, it doesn't matter, he's just like, "Hey, can you have the kids this weekend?" And she's more than happy to do it 'cause she has the kids the majority of the time, so it saved all of this time and money in court.
Just tell him what he wants to hear. He wants to believe that he's dad of the year, that the kids want to be around him. He wants to believe that he has this image of being so successful and basically his time is more valuable. So tell him that. She's the one who's actually controlling the narrative of the dynamic. This is how women can get their power back.
Seth Nelson:
Man, it sounds good, but I cannot imagine one of my clients doing that during the divorce. Maybe after.
Pete Wright:
Just because of the stress and the ...
Seth Nelson:
The stress.
Pete Wright:
Fear and anxiety.
Seth Nelson:
And then if you're saying all that, how is that going to play out in the courtroom? "Well, didn't you say the kids loved him?" But I appreciate the strategy post-divorce. I'd just be nervous going to court on that stuff.
Justine Weber:
I agree. And you would never write something like this down through a conversation, or if anything, it might help alleviate some of the intensity during court if he feels like it's not like a battle, you're not fighting, but we're actually sort of on the same team, or at least he maybe believes it.
But I agree, it takes a lot of courage. I mean, I have women that are like two, three years out, and this one woman, she was getting no financial support. Her ex lived in a foreign country. It was so complicated. I mean, it really was so complicated. So I was like, "You know what? I spoke to an attorney," and she was just in a really screwed up situation. So I was like, "Your best strategy is being so nice and complimentary toward him in hopes that he gives you something. It's not worth going to court," because of how complicated the situation was. And so she tried that and it hasn't gotten worse, put it that way, but it takes a lot of courage to suck it up and be like, "How is your day? You are such a good dad." I mean ...
Pete Wright:
Yeah, strength to be-
Justine Weber:
Some [inaudible 00:40:46] want murder.
Pete Wright:
Right. Right.
Justine Weber:
They're somebody you want to strangle.
Pete Wright:
Hopefully the answer to that and to so many more questions are in the book, How the Fuck Do I Heal From This?: Understanding Narcissistic Abuse and How to Put Your Life Back Together. Now the book is brand new, right?
Justine Weber:
Yes.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. All right, so this is very fresh-
Seth Nelson:
Pete, we're ahead of the curve.
Pete Wright:
I know.
Seth Nelson:
On pop culture, I'm five to 10 years behind. I feel like-
Pete Wright:
I know, but on divorced self-help books, you're on the money. That's a weird flex, but okay.
Justine, where do you want to send people to learn more about it?
Justine Weber:
I have a website, drjustineweber.com, that's my coaching business website, and I'm on all of the social media platforms, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook.
Pete Wright:
Seth's there too. He's going to be sure, especially Tiktok. He loves Tiktok. Old Tiktok Nelson they call him. He's not on Tiktok.
Seth Nelson:
That's exactly what will be written on my gravestone.
Pete Wright:
Well, we sure appreciate this. We will put all the links in the show notes to all of the places where you can go learn more about your work and pick up the book. You're fantastic for coming and hanging out with us and teaching us a little bit more about how to navigate the uncertain waters, rocky, stormy, stormy seas of the narcissistically abusive relationship. I don't know, was my metaphor? I think there are five metaphors in the last sentence.
Seth Nelson:
That was pretty good. I'm thinking, how the fuck do I figure out that metaphor?
Justine Weber:
My second book is going to be called What If I Didn't Fucking Heal? Then What?
Seth Nelson:
Nice.
Pete Wright:
Outstanding. Oh, there's maybe a much bigger market for that.
Justine Weber:
I'm three years out. I need to fucking heal. My life's worse.
Pete Wright:
Well, we sure appreciate you being here to talk about book number one.
Justine Weber:
Thank you so much for having me.
Pete Wright:
Thanks again, everybody for downloading and listening to this show. We appreciate your time and your attention. On behalf of Dr. Justine Weber and Seth Nelson, America's favorite divorce attorney, I'm Pete Wright, and we'll catch you back here next week on How to Split a Toaster, a divorce podcast about saving your relationships.
Outro:
How to Split A Toaster is part of the TruStory FM Podcast Network, produced by Andy Nelson, music by T. Bless & the Professionals and DB Studios. Seth Nelson is an attorney with NLG Divorce and Family Law with offices in Tampa, Florida. While we may be discussing family law topics, How to Split a Toaster is not intended to, nor is it providing legal advice. Every situation is different. If you have specific questions regarding your situation, please seek your own legal counsel with an attorney licensed to practice law in your jurisdiction. Pete Wright is not an attorney or employee of NLG Divorce and Family Law. Seth Nelson is licensed to practice law in Florida.
